The Congressional Globe, Volume 28, Part 3: Thirty-Third Congress, First Session Page: 1,598
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1598
THE CONGRESSIONAL GLOBE.
July 1,
claim for the whole amount. If they act as they
must act, according to the law, the law requires
that they shall demand vouchers for whatever is
claimed, and that they must be produced before
the commission pass judgment upon it. Sufficient
evidence must be produced in every case to Sub-
stantiate it. if they should be of the opinion that
he was not imprisoned improperly by the Spanish
Government, they will <not make any allowance
for it. There is a claim for Spanish scrip (Lilra-
mientos) which he is said to have obtained at thirty-
three and one third per cent, discount. They may
find it convenient from this fact to reduce that
item thirty-three and one third per cent. Every
item must be examined with as close and jealous
scrutiny as it would have been before the com-
mission had adjudicated upon it.
i ask gentlemen to understand the nature of the
provisions of this bill. They are not to appro-
priate so many hundred thousand dollars unre-
servedly to Richard W. Meade. They place so
much money at the disposal of the Government to
adjudicate claims which are made in the name of
honesty against the Government. Surely there is
no man here who would hesitate to do that. Surely
there is po man in this committee who would say
to this man, we have you m our power, and we
will fleece you right or wrong. Was not the
claim adjudicated by Spain ?—I am asked. 1 have
been arguing: that point as to whether the claim
was not adjudicated prior to ihe treaty. Admitted;
but was it not included in (he treaty ?
While I declare to you the settlement was made
in June, the treaty was not ratified until October,
1 also say to you that the conditions of that rati-
fication were, and I proved it, that Richard W.
Meadecase, whether settled or unsealed, liqui-
dated or unliquidated, was included in the con-
tract, and that Spain for giving thiee grants of
land, including the beat portions of Florida, should
not be compelled to pay Richard W.Meade. The
oaths of four members of the Cortes are given in
proof of that, and the admission of Mr. Forsyth
is enough to sanction it.
I urn also asked, Has not Meade, subsequent
to the ratification, insisted on payment from Spain *
ury, the great republican luxury, of earning their
bread by the sweat of their brow. Whenever
they get any portion of thi|pjaim by our righteous
decision ujton it, they will nave learned the value
of that which they have earned; and they will
i do not know that he has. Mr. Meade has pur- i: just rights?
have earned?! think, all they wili get from Con-
gress ?
Mr. EWING. I would inquire of the gentle-
man from Pennsylvania how many reports jiave
been made in favor of this claim, and ho-w many
against it?
Mr. CHANDLER. There are a great many
made in favor, and 1 believe but two against it.
Mr. JONES, of Tennessee. 1 would ask if
Mr Clayton did not make a report against the
claim ?
Mr. CHANDLER. Thomas M. Clayton
made a report against it.
Mr. JONES. Did not Mr. Forsyth report
against it? He thought that the action of the
commission was not conclusive. I ask the gentle-
man if there have been more than two leports made
in favor of this claim—one by Edward Everett,
and, the other by Horace Everett? A bill was
reported again and a^ain by Mr. Archer, of Vir-
ginia, when m this House.
Mr. CHANDLER. Mr.Thomas M. Clayton
made a report against the claim founded only upon
the decision of the commissioners. Mr. Forsyth
did the same thing; at the same time, he said that
the claim ought to be paid. The gentleman from
Tennessee [Mr. Jones] says that two reports were
made in favor of it. Does he suppose that the
Committee on Foreign Affairs did not make a
favorable report? Does he suppose that there are
not eight or ten reports made in favor of this claim,
containing, substantially, the views and opinions
of the gentlemen who made them, and who, after
a vory careful investigation, expressed their views
m the repoita which they adopted, repeating as
suiltriently explicit, the reports of former commit-
tees? But gentlemen say thesum claimed m this
ca.se is too huge. Is that any reason against the
justice of this claim? Does any man assert here
that the principle of a c'aim is to he decided by
its amount, withholding irorn the claimants their
sued his claim here. All the testimony will show
that, from the time the commission was established,
almost cvciy year, this claim has been brought be-
fore us. The great, question is: If the judgment
repoucd by Spain be not inclusive, is not Meade
compelled to prove the original indebtedness?
Certainly; and the bill provides for that. I have
presented no lull which shall take from the Treas-
ury of the United States a sum of money to give
Mr. JONES, of Tennessee. Does not the re-
port, in express terms, except this claim from the
treaty ?
Mr. CHANDLER. No, sir.
Mr. CHANDLER. I object to the gentlemnn
reading an isolated passage in thatrepoit. In my
former remarks, I stated that this could not be
done. If I said that there was not any inclusion
expiessed or understood between the parties, the
it to somebody because he claims; not at all. I j; second treaty did not make it. That is all that
| is said there. I protest, also, ngamst an argu-
; merit founded on the antiquity of the claim—if it
j is old, it is not the claimant's fault. Shall we deny
! justice, and then plead our own denial. Shall we
| say to the honest claimant, give your claim the acl-
; vantage of years, that we may deliberate, and then
; deny justice upon the ground of a^e?*
! Mr. Chan man, the heirs of Richard W. Meade
present themselves here with a claim upon the Span
have presented a bill which makes an appropria
tion to pay any sum of money which just and
righteous men shall declai e, after pioof, the Gov-
'ernment owes. That is all. If officers of the
Treasury be appointed to investigate the case, I
ask nothing of them more than I would ask of
any other court. I do not wish them to grant
anything to Richard W. IV]cade more than to any
other man. I only ask Unit when Richard W
Mende has been deprived ot his claim on Spam : ■ ish Government, with proof that the Spanish Gov-
by the action of this Government, and this Gov- ji'ernment believed, and the American Minister
ernment itself has neglected to bring from Spain, l! admitted, that the treaty of 1819 included that claim,
in pursuance of the treaty, the vouchers for his :| and made the Government of the United States
claim, and he has been shut oil* from petition, that 'I responsible therefor. The testimony of the mem-
the Go\eminent, with manly rectitude, with a bets of the Spanish Cortes is ample on this point,
spirit of justice and uprightness, allow thi<* man ;• The admission of Mr. Forsyth is fullv corrobu-
to plead his own claim before it, the Government j| rated, and the action of the American commission-
itseif being the judge. j1 era under that treaty show that they believed that
The feeling has gone abroad that this is an areu- ' Mr. Meade's was included in this treaty;and their
ment to give $300,000 or $400,000 to some lew ■; decision establishes the fact, that while his claim
persons, itisnotso. We should do justice as we'j was rejected, it was rejected only because he did
love mercy;and our Government should walk up- \\ not produce the vouchers required by them. It is
rightly before the world in this as well as all other , | in proof ' *
matters. The pamphlet which is presented here
as the report, shows that there was a doubt even
about the citizenship of Mr. Meade. I should
have had better hope of success if he had wot
been a citizen. If he had been a foreigner, he would
have received a liberal and gentlemanly answer.
But Mr. Meade was an American citizen; and the
case here is with one who only claims American
citizenship; and we stand herefrom 1822 to 1854,
dallying, waiting, and hesitating to give his family
his jast dues. Our justice, if it ever comes, will 1
proof that application was made to Spain for
the vouchees; but they were not obtained before
the term of the commission closed. It is evident
that Spain was as much bound under the ueaty
to supply that document, as she was formally to
cede to our Government the possession of Florida,
and that our Government failed in its duty to en-
force that part of the treaty against Spam and in
favor of Mr. Meade. And thus, by a neglect of
the Government, either to extend the existence of
the commission, or enforce the fulfillment of the
, treaty, Mr. Meade was deprived of his property,
come too late to aid those who have been suf- ;j while the Government has the rich domain which
fering most for the want of it. The descendants i| it received as a price of Meade's claim, as well as
of Mr. Meade, permit me to say, live in the lux- il that of others. We ask, then, not that Meade's I
heirs be paid, not that they receive a grant, hut
that they be allowed to prove their claim by vouch-
ers such as the commission would have admitted.
Mr JONES. 1 move to strike out the enact-
ing clause of this bill. That takes in the whote
merits* of the case, as I understand it; and I sub-
mit that motion for the purpose of making a brief
reply within five minutes, to the remarks of the
gentleman from New York, [Mr. Smith,] made
some time ago. In his reply to my remarks, he
assumed, in the first place, that Mr. Adams was
my witness, that I had introduced him here, and
thus congratulated himself that, as he ?ras my
witness* I could not discredit him. And then, for
the purpose of breaking ftie force of Mr. Adams's
testimony, the gentleman says that Mr. Adams
was a man not of liking's and dishkings. but of
love and hate. And did I understand the gentle-
man from Pennsylvania [Mr. Chandler] to say
just now that Mr. Adams had a view to triumph
rather than to justice ?
Mr. CHANDLER. I said thathehad a great
view to triumph.
Mr. JONES. Did you not say something as
to his desire to triumph wholly regardless of testi-
mony ?
Mr. CHANDLER. No, T did not,
Mr. JONES. The gentleman from Pennsyl-
vania said that he had greater regard to triumph
than to justice. ]N[ow, I never expected that the
gentleman from Pennsylvania would attempt to
throw suspicion on that man's testimony or char-
acter. iiut I say to the gentleman from New
York, that he fell into an error, in supposing that
Mr. Adams was my witness.
Here, Mr. Chairman, is the report of the com-
mittee made in this case. The committee intro-
duced Mr. Adams here as a witness. They
; brought him forward as a witness, and published,
! as n part of the testimony on which they rested this
j claim, a letter from Mr. Adams to Mr. Salmon,
! the Spanish representative to this Government,
t From this the gentleman reads an extract, to show
I that Mr. Adams thought that the claim was just.
! He says, also, that he and I read from the same
letter. There he was in error again. I read from
! Mr. Adams's letter to Mr. Nelson, our Minister to
| the Court of Spain, and he read from his letter to
! the Spanish representative to this Government.
: And the letter from Mr. Adams to Mr. Nelson has
j never found its way, as far as I can perceive, into
j any report made to this House. They have slept
upon that; but you will find it here in an old
volume that I have. It is dated Washington, 28th
April, 1833, and the one on which the committee
reports, is dated 29th April, 1823, and, as I under-
stand it, the copy of this letter to Mr. Salmon was
also inclosed to Mr. Nelson, in the one for him.
But the gentleman from New York quotes from
this to Mr. Salmon, and he stops at an important
paragraph. I will not read what he quoted, m
order to sustain the claim. But if he had con-
tinued the paragraph, he would have found that
Mr. Adams says, Mr. Meade might, with as
much propriety, have purchased in the market at
its current price, any other order on the funds of
the royal finance department, and brought if. be-
fore the commissioners as a claim provided for by
the treaty, as lie could this order—a part of the
sum constituting which was for interest accrued
after the treaty had been signed.
Now, this same report excludes this case from
the treaty conclusively.
The committee,.in their report, state that the
character of the claim was changed by the liquida-
tion of it by Spain. They say:
"This change of the character of the claim, thu* com-
municated to oar Government, was jier «e a revocanon of
alt prior authority to interpose onbeiiaifof the claimant,
and a renunciation of any under any construction
or understanding of the trcatv.or that could accrue from its
resuscitation at any future penod.
"The piovi->iouh of the treaty, a5! signed, under any con-
^trui'tjon, wei<i no longer applicable or appropuato to the
case. The claim on winch the interposition of the Gov-
ernment had been solicited no longer existed. There wai
no longer anything, either as to u mount or validity, for ad-
judication. Theie was nothing tolt to be done but the pay-
ment ot an acknowledged debt."
And now, sir, the only mode of getting it back
is based upon what Mr. Forsyth said upon the
testimony of two or three Spaniards, who say
they weie members of the Cortes. I admit, that
if Mr. Forsyth did say so, he could not change
the character of the treaty
[Here the hammer fell.]
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United States. Congress. The Congressional Globe, Volume 28, Part 3: Thirty-Third Congress, First Session, book, 1854; Washington D.C.. (https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc30787/m1/32/: accessed July 16, 2024), University of North Texas Libraries, UNT Digital Library, https://digital.library.unt.edu; crediting UNT Libraries Government Documents Department.