-: If it would have wound its way through the courts,
it would've been an interesting case
to see what would happen.
Because, because, I mean if you look at the history
of judicial and court decided cases,
they always go to the municipality,
like the history of Texas
And they were always about local control.
The courts had given cities a mandate to regulate stuff.
So it was headed to a showdown,
and they've upheld other issues in the past
with oil and gas issues, inside cities.
They've upheld the city's authority to regulate that.
So I don't know if it was a slam dunk for the state.
So they had to have a legislative fix to it.
That's what happened.
I mean, they could just poo-poo it in the media,
and let this run its course,
and hope that we would back out,
because they're threatening
all these financial repercussions to the city.
But they needed a legislative solution,
because it wouldn't, it might not have passed the courts.
The courts might've, just on precedent,
said, "No" like the city does have the authority to do that.
And then that would've set a new precedent,
that would be unacceptable to the industry
and their minions in the state government.
-: You mentioned that you had traveled around the city
getting GIS mapping.
-: Yeah.
-: Would you be willing to share that
for the Portal to Texas History?
Or any of that?
-: Yeah.
-: Digitally?
-: Yeah conceivably,
I could do something with that.
Yeah.
Yeah, we can talk more about that.
-: Okay we can talk afterwards,
about that. -: Yeah.
-: So just a couple more questions.
-: I gotta leave soon.
-: Yeah, it's getting.
Have you worked on similar campaigns
following this one, or?
-: No.
-: No?
-: No, that was it.
And it's interesting, I think, like the people in Denton
are more aware of what's going on.
'Cause I think we're now,
I mean that really woke people up
to who's on the city council,
to decisions that they're making
and what it means for the long-term.
Like they don't just take it for granted.
I think there's a base of people out there
that could be mobilized,
if they need to be mobilized,
around issues that are important to the community.
-: What was the impact of this experience
with applied democracy on you,
your community, this issue?
You mentioned this was a great experience for you,
you know, you finally thought,
"Hey, my vote matters".
You know, what do you think,
you kinda hinted at it a little bit
about how everyone's now aware of the issue.
-: That's the positive that came out of it.
I mean, because the negative is that,
you know, they just threw local control
right back in our face.
The state government constantly is complaining about
you know, the federal government stepping in,
and doing things that they shouldn't be doing.
And yet here was the big state government stepping in,
and telling cities that you can't do that.
And they've continued to do that.
And so it wasn't just because of fracking,
but there's a whole other set of issues,
with not just Texas, but Texas being a big one,
where they're taking away municipal power to do things.
And so, to me that sets a dangerous precedent.
And it's disconcerting...
to see that breakdown
in terms of democratic control.
So, on the one hand it was a positive experience,
but I think the reaction to it
and the long-term effects,
I think are are less democratic.
Even though I was galvanized as a voter,
and so were we locally.
I think until you get some changes at the state level,
we're seeing cities constantly under threat
of the state government to take power away from cities,
who should be making determinations about local stuff.
'Cause they live here.
Like we're, and they're governed by people who live here,
who know what's going on here.
So, that's who should be making decisions,
and so that's disturbing
in terms of how the democracy works.
-: And then on a final more philosophical note,
if you were to advise let's say a town in Colorado,
or in some other state was wanting to replicate,
you know, The D-A-G and the Frack Free Denton movement,
would you, what lessons would you tell them,
you know, to take from this attempt?
Like what would you have done better?
What could you have not been able to do better,
like lessons?
-: Well I think a lot of the lessons are you need
to be aware of what's going on, on the front end.
So when the gas drilling came into Denton,
people assumed it was
just the same old conventional drilling.
Nobody understood what was going on with the fracturing.
And so, how do you understand that?
To me I lay some of the blame on the city council
for not educating themselves enough about what was going on,
that this was a fundamentally different thing,
because the surface impacts are larger,
the aesthetics are more brutal,
like the changes to the aesthetics are more brutal,
the traffic and other things are more intense,
the resources that you're injecting,
the inputs to get the gas out are much larger.
So not knowing that, I think moving forward,
the advice is you need to recognize
that what we're seeing now,
is not what we're going to see in 10 years from now.
So if you think, like I think the lesson learned
is I don't think we were aware in the city,
even before DAG, of how big this was going to get,
and nor could we have really been aware unless we had--
-: Right.
-: Had our eye on the ball.
And I think that's what DAG does now,
they keep their eye on the ball.
To me it's important to have citizens
and local residents who are trying
to keep abreast of what's going on,
because I think environmentally it's constantly,
it's constantly under threat inside cities,
because it's constant pressure
to locate new industries inside cities.
And for most people the economics
will trump any of the environment,
or its supposed economics will trump
the environmental risks associated with that.
So yeah, I don't know what we would do differently.
I think it played out the way it was supposed to play out,
to be honest.
I thought we did really good.
I mean, there's a lot of local people who supported it
in a predominantly red area,
who were being told not to vote that way.
And they all voted against it.
So they stood up for their local community,
despite the state and state reps telling them like,
"Don't do this."
-: And you really too stood up to, you know,
big business there for, I don't know, however, a while.
-: Well, and I think it kind of put, served notice
to the industry in the States.
Like you need to be better,
you need to be better actors,
because you need to be more responsible neighbors
and stuff.
Because even today, even with HB 40
People, there's still a lot of power
for residents and local people to protest,
and affect change, and they know that.
So I think they'll tread lightly as a result of that,
if it comes back to this area.
And other areas too, I mean,
I think they're aware of, people will get upset,
and they'll get upset when you put wells too close to homes.
So don't put wells too close to homes!
(laughing)
I mean, that should be the initial response.
Like just don't do that.
Don't put a well next to a park, like where kids play.
That's just dumb!
Like we need to police ourselves not to do that.
And that's what being a socially responsible corporation is.
So, what else?
-: That's basically it.
The only other thing I was going to ask was,
do you have any documents
that you would like to share with us?
-: I can't put those together right now,
but I could, yeah, let's talk later
and I'll think through, shoot me an email again,
and I'll think through what I actually have,
and I can put some things together.
But yeah right now, I'm out of time.
That phone call was telling me I needed to leave.
-: Well thank you for the interview.
-: Sure.
-: I appreciate, you know, participating in this
and all that stuff.
I found it really fascinating.
-: Yeah, it's interesting right?
-: I'm more trained in like poli-sci,
and philosophy, and history, and German.
So I got a little bit of understanding,
you know, with the poli-sci
and the environmental justice with philosophy.
But the rest of it was, just like, brand new information
that I found was like totally fascinating.
-: Yeah, it's interesting right?
-: Yeah.
-: I know so, yeah.